Community Interviews 2: Kinderbevrijdingsfront or 'N'© 20 March 2019 Marthijn Uittenbogaard
This second Community Interview is with a Dutch guy in his twenties. He appeared incognito in two television broadcasts and he once wrote an article in a newspaper and he also gave a few talks for students at some universities. His Twitter name is Kinderbevrijdingsfront (Child Liberation Front).
First let me ask you this question: how do you want to be called in this interview? On Twitter you use the name Kinderbevrijdingsfront but you also once published an article in the Dutch newspaper De Volkskrant using the name Mark L.
That was my first thought after talking to you about this interview. I've used quite a lot of pseudonyms, roles and alter egos over the past years. The most (in)famous probably being 'Mark Lucius'. I personally don't consider Mark Lucius to be a pseudonym, it's an alter ego. I don't always agree with what Mark Lucius said, but it was strategic. It served a purpose. And as far as I'm concerned, there is no use to Mark anymore. As for the Child Liberation Front, well, that's hardly a name. It's an idea, a brand, that everyone should feel free to use. You're not interviewing Mark or the Child Liberation Front. You're interviewing the person behind it. For the moment you can call me 'N' just like Near from Death Note. [Death Note is a famous Japanese manga series.]
We met a couple of times at my place, and I know you are struggling with coming out into the public or not? You once did a TV interview. In this interview you were made partly unrecognizable with make up. This way, no one in the streets would recognize you, but I'm sure your parents and so on would still be able to recognize you. Was this a shock for them, or did you tell them before?
The day of recording took about twelve hours in total. Seven filming and over four hours in make-up. It was mid Summer and it was incredibly hot. Wearing long sleeves, boots and a latex mask didn't exactly make it bearable. I could literally and figuratively not keep myself cool. Most important thing I remember is a very long monologue from me about sexual relationships probably not being damaging, while the interviewer just kept shaking her head. They edited me to be exactly what they wanted: scared, ashamed and mentally ill. They forgot to show the reality, that I was angry at the world for not allowing me to be who I am and for having to be scared. It actually wasn't the only video interview I did. Editie NL, a Dutch tabloid TV news show also aired an interview with me. This time about chemical castration. It was filmed in a park near the studio. It came in a response to a mental health program elsewhere in Europe where non-offending pedo's let themselves be chemically castrated. I had planned to take my family out to diner, the night the episode was aired on TV and leaving them in the dark about it. However in the announcements of the episode the week before, my parents had already recognized me. So that saved me a few quid. They were very unhappy about it. They never told me that with so many words, but they really were. They still hope I quit doing activism.
Were did you grow up? In a small village or in a town? Do you have brothers and sisters? How are they handling your activism?
I grew up on the edge of a city (between 50-100k inhabitants). Farmland, beaches, forest, all nearby. A really great place to grow up as a boy. Not so much as a teen or young adult. I think I may be the last generation that climbed trees, at least it felt that way. I remember when I was ten years old, one of my teachers told me that I was hurting the trees and shouldn't climb them. I thought she was nuts. I drove by my old school last summer and noticed all the trees had been made unclimable and no-one was playing fantasy games or things like that. It makes me sad. My family was rather free and as the youngest of three, I think, I benefited the most. There was little meddling in my personal relationships and everyone was always really impressed with the amount and kind of friends I had. I never had any issues being real good friends with boys. I remember I felt a bit confused about my feelings earlier, but the moment it really struck me was when our class was asked to 'babysit' a lower class. I was about nine years old and I was coupled with a boy who was four or five years old. The moment I saw him, I felt butterflies in my stomach. I was head over heals instantly. I think it took me about five minutes to end up cuddling with him. Because I was different, I was bullied. It wasn't just the bullies who thought I was weird, it was also me, realizing I was completely different from the rest of the world. Eventually, I grew stronger, more robust. My siblings are dealing with it in different ways. One of them I haven't seen in four years. From what I've heard it's because he wants to protect his children from me. Just one week ago, they said they hoped to see me with an adult partner soon. I told them: 'must be one fat cat [very wealthy person] before I consider dating an adult'.
To return to the coming out again. Why do you want to come out to the public? And what is withholding you to do so? In other words, what are the pros and cons in this far from easy dilemma?
I originally didn't come out because I don't want to be an activist, or at least not permanently. I still feel this way a lot. Sadly I feel obligated to pick up the bullhorn myself. I feel like we're running out of time, and almost everyone is too scared to do anything about it. But then, if I lose in the end, what would have been the point of living if I didn't try. My sole purpose in life is to love and be a good lover. Sadly right now, I need to fight to make that even possible. Coming out needs to serve a purpose. It means I can stand up at a conference, that I can represent myself without hiding, that I can appear on television (without hours in the make-up). I want nobody to ever feel as alone as I have felt. But most importantly, I want to stand up and look hatred right into the eyes and say: 'I am scared and I accept that, but I'm never going to back down'. I know the cons, no more job, no insurance, a life of uncertainty. I remember the first time visiting you. You told me not to accidentally ring your neighbors' door. I was thinking: 'How the hell could I ever make that mistake?' In the middle of a very normal street. Everything in your front yard had been demolished. The protective window plates still had what I think was egg on them. And there were camera's. I've followed the media. I know the consequences. I've been dreaming about them, protesting in front of my door and shouting at them that they can leave the boys and go home. Although that may not be very realistic.
I like boys. I like men. I also like young girls. Women?, well they last in the row. But you only like boys if I'm correct. What's wrong with you? :-)
What's wrong with me? What's wrong with you! Yuck, girls and more importantly, that's so gross you advocating your teleiophilia. Why even call yourself a pedo if you're into adults! You're stealing my identity! I'm joking of course. A little. I feel actually quite lonely in our little world. Sometimes I feel like the only true exclusive nepiopedophile [into toddlers] in the world. I actually had a lot of trouble with coming out as nepio to other pedophiles and to just accept it myself. I'm still not completely honest about my 'age of attraction'. I'm primarily attracted to boys from about four to about twelve. But don't think I never see very attractive infants or that there aren't any twinks that I would bone. I've dated young adults, had a few relationships with them and still have some sex with old young friends. I can feel attraction, I like dating, I like making out. However in the bedroom, or when things get 'serious,' I feel repulsion.
People say I am provoking too much. Giving my opinion, or even being who I am seems to provoke people. But when I look at your tweet record, I only see provoking tweets. You really like to provoke do you? And is this useful you think in changing people's attitudes concerning pedophilia?
In my opinion being provocative isn't a thing. People can feel provoked, but one can not provoke others. It's the stupid narrow minded brains of the person who feels provoked, that causes them to feel how they feel. When I say something, my goal isn't to make the other feel bad. It's to make them think. But apparently, that's too hard for some people. I'm not being provocative, I'm not trying to shock people. I'm saying things that should be fine to say. I know what you're thinking: others are going to dislike it or hate us for it. But guess what: your existence is provocative and offensive to them. It doesn't matter what you do or say, it's all considered wrong. In the TV interview, I was asked about the same. They asked me what I thought of a certain tweet I send. 'That awkward moment when you see a picture of your friend, when he was ten years old, in a speedo and think: he is hot'. I wished people wouldn't get provoked by what I have to say. And I hope, others do like them and recognize their own thoughts and feelings. Or that teleio's will understand that their feelings are not weird.
I also see you use the abbreviation NPEH. Another abbreviation in the MAP, NOMAP, Ped, or LGBTI+ community! What does this one stand for?
Nepiophilia, pedophilia, ephebephilia and hebephilia. I always hated the term MAP, especially when NOMAP [non offending minor attracted person] was invented. The term 'child lover' was loaded too much. MAP and child lover kind of make me feel like I'm afraid to call myself a pedophile. That I'm embarrassed about it. Or that I'm trying to re-brand my sexuality. Calling myself a 'pedophile' makes me feel like I'm not acknowledging my full identity. I'm very much a nepiophile and I see ephebes or hebes call themselves pedophiles.
If the god Amos Yee would stand in front of you, and he would demand you to suck his dick and swallow his cum, would you do so or would you refuse?
There is so much wrong with that question... where to begin. First of all: gross! Second: the god Amos Yee? If I'm in a good mood I maybe would call him the 'poltergeist Amos Yee'. Why can't we just ignore his existence. If Amos Yee stood in front of me and demanded I'd suck his cock and swallow his cum, I'd kick him and make him fall to his knees, and let him suck my soft cock as long as it takes for him to realize what a little useless bitch he is. And then I'd take an extreme long shower to get the gross Amos Yee saliva of my big beautiful cock.
Are you in favor of child marriage? Or do you want to abolish marriage from all laws? That only people marry for fun, or for a church, with the terms and conditions these organizations come up with, but that legally it has no meaning anymore.
I'm not just against marriage, I'm against monogamy. It's not okay that one feels so much ownership of their partner, that they can decide who to love and who to have sex with. Monogamy is exactly what is wrong with the current view of relationships. We view others as our property. We view love, if we love someone else as well, as something bad, while all love is great. The reason I created the Child Liberation Front is to fight this ownership. Especially the ownership of children. Children, or anyone for that matter, shouldn't be forced to do things or to not do things. They shouldn't be forced to live with those people who didn't use a condom [he's describing parents], and to go to school where they are indoctrinated by the authoritarian system. A system that only tries to prevent them from rebelling or from being different. Children should be able to live where and with whom they want, love whom they want and fuck who they want. Child marriage would make this situation even worse. If anything, we should criminalize marriage and criminalize the organizations that perform these kinds of ceremonies, like the churches, the mosques and the synagogues.
Criminalize these ceremonies? Or you can just abolish the legal status of it all and let people do whatever ritual they feel like.
Let me start by saying: I'm not against ceremonies celebrating love. Marriage however is a ritual where one person gives up a part of their freedom to someone else or two people do that to each other or towards a religious organization or community. Even if it doesn't have a legal status, that doesn't change much about its value by the partners and/or their community. One can still feel like they hold rights over another and religious organizations can feel the same. Only criminalization, not just no longer recognizing it, makes it possible to stop this.
Which one of these two taboos is the greatest taboo: pedosexuality or incest? And can a taboo sometimes be positive thing?
I haven't seen my brother in years. I have two nephews: his children. One of them, I have never met. My brother does not want me being around his children. I told my dad to explain to my brother that I am not into incest. I feel repulsion for sex with my own family members. I also believe that this incest taboo is not something we are born with, it is created by how we live together as a family. It actually surprises me how negative people react to incest among adults. I mean, I get the problem with a parent and a young child, because there is a serious authoritarian relationship there, but brothers with sisters or with cousins? I mean, go for it. I think a sexual relationship between a child and an adult is more taboo than incest at the moment. I think zoophilia is even a bigger taboo, not to mention something as necrophilia. Which I really don't get why this is a problem. Just as gross as hetero-teleiophilia if you ask me, and we still allow that. And if a taboo can be a positive thing? Well, I think there is a very obvious one: it makes it so much hotter.
Did you see the documentary Leaving Neverland? If not, I'm sure you heard a lot about this documentary in the news. What is your opinion about this documentary and/or the response to it in the media?
That Wade Robson sure was a hottie. He reminds me of a five year old boy that I know and who I love. When he started telling about how Michael Jackson sucked him off, I got a raging boner. And with such a statement, I'm no longer objective. I felt jealous. Seeing pictures of them together; it's just one attractive couple. I can imagine making the mistakes Michael supposedly made. I'm also quite sure that Michael was a real boy lover. If those boys were better prepared for the future. If they had been given the tools to deal with in society, then I'm sure they now would look back only positively. I can imagine Michael Jackson didn't have the tools or knowledge to do this. Seeing the images of Michael walking towards that courtroom again, him being so skinny, barely able to stand. It makes me so incredibly sad. Hearing the things he supposedly said to the boys, how scared he must have been. It's horrible. And now those boys as adults, not being able to look back at it positively, seeing themselves as abused, feeling that trauma and pain. I cried during the documentary, for all of them. I'm sad to see his fans don't want to believe it's true. Instead of supporting Michael and his relationships and to understand why he made some mistakes. I'm sad that we can't hear Michael and that he never was able to defend what he was and what he felt. He wasn't able to leave a true legacy for boy love, he didn't even sing about it. But I still love listening to his song Butterflies, because that's the way you make me feel (boys).
When I interviewed Ed Chambers, he advised not to go to a therapist. He had negative experiences with these people. You have also experiences with therapists concerning your sexuality. How did you meet up with them, and how was your experience?
I've spend a lot of hours in the offices of therapists. Dealing with being attracted to children wasn't always easy. During my teens it scared me, and growing up I thought I would become some sort of sexual predator, without the aspects of love. I mean, that's what society made me to believe. At first I went to a doctor, a young woman. She told me I was brave for getting help, and not much else. She send me to a regular therapist. This therapist was rather horrible I must say. She just kept looking at me with disgust, telling me there was nothing she could do. Another one didn't want to help either and finally, the psychiatrist send me away. They all couldn't deal with it. There was a helpline called Stop It Now. I did not thought positively about this helpline but eventually I gave it a shot. After only five minutes on the phone, I got an appointment with a forensic psychologist. I and the psychologist were constantly debating childhood, child sexuality, consent, child pornography, society's view on pedophilia. I really wanted her to convince me I had been wrong in my believes. I wanted her to prove to me, that children aren't able to consent. In total, I spend about seventy-five hours with two psychologists. I wanted to be able to deal with being an oppressed minority, help with my anxieties and my fears. And with my discomfort around boys, that I had at that point. They never helped me with any of the problems I had. I feel like all they did is trying to make me feel guilty. Eventually I even tried anti-depressants to lower my sexual drive for two or three months. My high sex drive was actually bothering me. It was not that I didn't want to be a pedo or that I was afraid of offending. In the end I went to a sexologist. She thought being a pedophile meant I had trouble building relationships with adults. She wanted to help me with flirting and dating. But I didn't have a problem with this at all.
That does not sound very positive. What would you advise someone who is struggling with his or her feelings towards children?
I have no choice but to strongly recommend to never ever disclose your attraction towards a social or medical worker. Not only can they not help you and will they very likely make you feel worse, but you will also risk being falsely prosecuted or at least not getting a fair trial. Not to mention that they could also leek or pressure you to disclose your sexual attraction with others. One of the first things the forensic psychiatric professional I was send to by Stop It Now did, was trying to get me to 'come out' to my family and to make contact between her and my family. All these things will only make life significantly harder for you. What you can do. Search for on-line communities, make sure you are safe, both on-line and off-line. Most importantly, don't feel bad about your attraction. It can be a great thing. Do what will make you happy. Make young friends. And just a note: we very much need activists, now more than ever. We're running out of time, but don't risk it all when it doesn't add anything.
If pedophile relationships would be allowed, do you think that people attracted to kids are capable of handling this? 'Go away from my YF (young friend)'. 'I laid my eyes on him before you met him, he's mine!' Or do you think many people need to be educated first. Not to see people as property.
Legalizing relationships between NPEHs and children is not as easy as to remove the age of consent. We have a serious sexual violence problem in our society, both against adults and children. Right now, the way society works, the position children are put in; it will take a person a whole lot of knowledge, restraint, patience, love and selflessness to make a relationship work, even if we take the criminal justice system out of the equation. Adults abusing children, pedo's abusing children. That remains a problem and may even become worse without proper education, proper laws and proper ethical boundaries. Not to forget the position of children in society needs improve a lot. Children should have the same rights as adults, only with less responsibility and more protection. Even the way we date is becoming more American style. Dating is hunting and preying. I think it's terrible. I do however think it may be possible to have ethical healthy relationships right now, with the current laws in place.
This year the Stonewall Inn riots took place fifty years ago. You want the LGBTI+ community to include pedophiles, like they used to do. How can we achieve this goal? How do you see the future?
As a pedophile, I still consider myself part of the LGBT community, because I still like people of the same sex, just not the old people. I've come out towards lots of gays as a boy lover and I did attend Pride Amsterdam. Last Pride I put up stickers promoting child-adult relationships and on my way home I made out with a twink on the train. The year before, at Pride at the Beach, I was dancing with some really hot kids... They kinda noticed I was enjoying myself with those boys and they 'guided me away' by having Mister Leather Switzerland and Mister Leather Netherlands, dance with me at the same time. We should have an inclusive sexual minority movement. We should be welcoming everyone at every event. We should remind the LGBT community that we used to be part of the same team. I hope that in the future we as NPEHs get as much as a community as the LGBTs have. With art, literature, political involvement, social events, clubs, parties, porn. There is, in my opinion, just one way to go forward and that is to go out there and fight for our rights and our positions. Make the claim for it and do not take no for an answer. And if that doesn't work, we may need to convince them, one little lover at the time.